Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

This section is for technical Q & A
Please try the search function before starting a new thread.
Forum rules
Many subjects will have been discussed before. Please try the search function before starting a new thread.
Check in the Know Your 2 as the information you need may already be there.
Important ! - Please make your topic title as descriptive as possible . titles with just "help" generally dont get as many answers as a title that points to the problem
User avatar
BALDYMONSTER
Posts: 361
Joined: 13/08/14 21:44
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 5
MR2's Owned: 3
Real Name: Chris
Location: Stirlingshire

Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by BALDYMONSTER » 27/12/16 1:27

What is the best way to tame/prevent the dreaded front end lift guys/girls?

I know you can buy the underbody speedflap thingy's which I will be purchasing along with loads of other "censored" next year.

I want buy and fit the aeroware front lip as well but I see other front lip, spoiler, spitters with curved edges avaialble. Has anyone noticed a difference with these?

I am loathed to fit the boy racer fins lower down on the front wings for obvious reasons and cutting through the front to channel air up through a slashed bonnet is not feasible as far as I am concerned anyway!

What about dialing in some camber on the front wheels? I will be fitting coilovers and have camber bolts already fitted and dialled in some front camber before but probably due to not doing the same to the rear I found it a bit snatchy.

Also, what sideskirts what people suggest to go with the aerowear front lip and rear spats? All with downforce in mind.

Thanks in advance.
Well those are my principles, and if you don't like them... I have others.

A child of 5 could understand this! Quick, send for a child of 5!

User avatar
shinny
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4331
Joined: 07/05/06 1:00
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 5
Real Name: Mark
Location: Reading, UK
Contact:

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by shinny » 27/12/16 1:42

I was lterally researching the same stuff, but I jumped straight to cutting a big hole in your bonnet!!

A guy called Outlaw did a pile of CFD analysis on this thread: http://www.mr2oc.com/193-aerodynamics-f ... ost4977211
MR2 with big venting hole hood and sealed bottom. Drag force 226 N. Lift force -16N. Wow, here we go with downforce and what is most interesting reduction in drag too!

Image
Velocity
Image
Pressure
Image
Temperature
Image
I've looked at this mod multiple times and always conclude it's not for me. Other than the speed flaps (which are on basically every modern car nowadays), I can't stand the idea of cardards and big (ugly?) lips etc for dubious and marginal gains. Most bodykits are about style more than true aero (and aren't really to my liking) but I'd be dubious of seeing any significant gains with them.

Lots of interesting things to read on that thread though.

For reference, this the his stock model:
MR2 stock. Rev 5 wing. Drag force 238 N. Lift force 95 N.
Velocity
Image
Pressure
Image
Temperature
Image

User avatar
shinny
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4331
Joined: 07/05/06 1:00
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 5
Real Name: Mark
Location: Reading, UK
Contact:

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by shinny » 27/12/16 1:49

If you're happy with the aesthetics, a splitter might be worth considering:
Basic splitter. Drag force 238 N. Lift force 67 N.
Image
Velocity
Image
Pressure
Image
Temperature
Image
Lower and extending further back does pretty well though. Would possibly affect real world practicality of getting over speedbumps etc:
So i was pretty wrong. Previous config was more like modified air dam (and i renamed previous tests that way). And real splitter works a lot better. Still i didn't make it very long to past wheel to leave more venting for radiator, but i can do it next time. I think it will work great when venting through the hood.

So here it is.

Lowered splitter (lowered 7 cm). Drag force 222 N. Lift force -4 N.

Velocity
Image

Pressure
Image

Temperature
Image

User avatar
peteV6R5
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 2259
Joined: 13/08/07 13:06
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 2
Real Name: Pete
Location: Stratford upon Avon

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by peteV6R5 » 27/12/16 8:20

Thats all very interesting and great info Mark. Not seen this before.
wouldn't want to cut hole in frunk lid unless going as track slag for me, but its quite plan to see the benifits from the diagrams etc.

On mine :-
Even the REV5 with speedflaps had front end lift and slight nervousness on motorways in standard configuration, especially in cross winds.

Lowering the 2 by 30mm helped a lot (APEX spings in my case).
The biggest difference was after fitting the BOMEX 180 front lip. now totally stable on any road (inc track) at any speed or wind condition.

I got TOMs side skirts and TOMs rear bumper. not sure they had any effect on front end lift though - just liked the look

Image
You do have options to reduce your front end lift
Image
Highland Drive 13/14/15/17
JAE 07/09/10/11/12/13/14/15/16
Japfest 09/11/12/13/16
Wales runs 14/15/16/17

User avatar
TonyleFrog
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 4536
Joined: 29/07/06 1:00
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 5
Real Name: Three guesses!
Location: Kent

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by TonyleFrog » 27/12/16 10:03

peteV6R5 wrote:On mine :-
Even the REV5 with speedflaps had front end lift and slight nervousness on motorways in standard configuration, especially in cross winds.

Lowering the 2 by 30mm helped a lot (APEX spings in my case).
The biggest difference was after fitting the BOMEX 180 front lip. now totally stable on any road (inc track) at any speed or wind condition.
Ditto re stability. I'm running a similar drop on BC coilovers with the same front lip (which it has always had in my ownership).
peteV6R5 wrote:I got TOMs side skirts and TOMs rear bumper. not sure they had any effect on front end lift though - just liked the look
Same side skirts but stock rear bumper.

Image
If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much room!

HM wrote: TonyleFrog aka "The Fog Penetrator"

User avatar
baileydom
Regional Rep
Regional Rep
Posts: 1287
Joined: 24/09/08 16:14
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 5
MR2's Owned: 1
Real Name: Dom
Location: colchester

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by baileydom » 27/12/16 18:40

I had a full bomex front bumper on my old car with bomex skirts and it was night and day stable at speed compared to the current car with stock bodywork. I think the stock bumper/splitter allows too much air to pass under the car so anything you do (lowering/splitter/bumper) to reduce that will see benefits

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
Super White 1MZ-FE V6

User avatar
gavsdavs
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 766
Joined: 10/08/10 12:30
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 16
MR2's Owned: 1
Location: London

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by gavsdavs » 27/12/16 22:36

I've often considered this so-called "lift" to be something of mr2-myth (like "snap oversteer") and actually a symptom of something else - play in bushes, or worn shocks. I've never suffered it in my car - stock suspension, stock ride height.

Having said that, stability at speed (i.e less turbulence/buffeting in the wheel arches) is improved by the use of the rev5 speed flapts, and sensible weighting of the frunk. I put all my tools and spare fluids and things in the frunk to counterbalance the rearward weight bias of the car - that's just common sense thinking.

It also helps to have a complete set of well fitted undertrays - these help smooth the air movement beneath the car - again, you want to avoid turbulence building up.
My car is stable at and retains good steering feel at up to pretty high speeds as a result - still the stock ride height and the stock suspension.

Bear in mind that proper aero dynamics really only start to become effective at high (100+) speeds and what you do to the body of the car has pretty limited effect beneath that.

I would not alter camber if you feel the car is unstable at high speeds, you don't want to make it more willing to turn.

User avatar
baileydom
Regional Rep
Regional Rep
Posts: 1287
Joined: 24/09/08 16:14
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 5
MR2's Owned: 1
Real Name: Dom
Location: colchester

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by baileydom » 28/12/16 11:49

gavsdavs wrote:I've often considered this so-called "lift" to be something of mr2-myth (like "snap oversteer") and actually a symptom of something else - play in bushes, or worn shocks. I've never suffered it in my car - stock suspension, stock ride height.

Having said that, stability at speed (i.e less turbulence/buffeting in the wheel arches) is improved by the use of the rev5 speed flapts, and sensible weighting of the frunk. I put all my tools and spare fluids and things in the frunk to counterbalance the rearward weight bias of the car - that's just common sense thinking.

It also helps to have a complete set of well fitted undertrays - these help smooth the air movement beneath the car - again, you want to avoid turbulence building up.
My car is stable at and retains good steering feel at up to pretty high speeds as a result - still the stock ride height and the stock suspension.

Bear in mind that proper aero dynamics really only start to become effective at high (100+) speeds and what you do to the body of the car has pretty limited effect beneath that.

I would not alter camber if you feel the car is unstable at high speeds, you don't want to make it more willing to turn.
Certainly not a myth.

As you know I reshelled my car so from the white car to the SMG car and it was a completely bare shell swap. I transferred the same engine, gearbox, wiring looms, suspension, bushes, shocks, wheels, brakes, interior, fuel tank etc. Literally unbolted everything off the white shell and put it into the SMG. And I'd already replaced all the bushes, topmounts, ball joints, struts, springs, brakes etc prior to the reshell. Wheel alignment exactly the same plus tyre make and pressures. My cars have a full set of trays as well. I do have a set of speedflaps to fit and I also fitted mudguards to the smg which did make a slight difference.

The only difference between the two cars is that one had aftermarket bodywork and this one does not. There is absolutely a difference between the two. I wouldn't maybe describe it as 'lift', but the stock bodied car is definitely a touch more 'twitchy' at speed. I'm not saying its not stable, it definitely is (as my rapid run up to the parents on Xmas morning proved. ahem!), but in comparison to the kitted car there is a difference.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
Super White 1MZ-FE V6

User avatar
pbmr2
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 1067
Joined: 17/06/10 1:42
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 6
MR2's Owned: 2
Location: W.Sussex

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by pbmr2 » 28/12/16 14:59

Mug guards would not help 'lift' as they restrict the high pressure air exiting the arch. If anything they should make it float more.
Last edited by pbmr2 on 28/12/16 17:11, edited 1 time in total.
*ECU Fault code reading - How To - Updated link
**BGB/workshop manual download - HERE
*** "Stop buying parts to solve the problem, find out what is wrong first!"

User avatar
vinp182
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 2702
Joined: 23/01/08 15:21
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 9
MR2's Owned: 100
Real Name: Vinny
Location: Walsall, West Midlands

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by vinp182 » 28/12/16 15:01

My stock rev3 turbo doesn't suffer with any kind of front end lift, it drives perfectly at any speed

However my modded turbo (bomex front, toms skirts, PP spats) which has coilovers (lighter than stock setup), and no spare wheel had front end lift issues. Solved it with dumbells in the frunk held down with the spare wheel bolt
Cars suck donkey balls

User avatar
baileydom
Regional Rep
Regional Rep
Posts: 1287
Joined: 24/09/08 16:14
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 5
MR2's Owned: 1
Real Name: Dom
Location: colchester

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by baileydom » 28/12/16 17:28

Right so basically no-one has a clue is the answer to the question haha. Different things work for different people for different reasons and some of it is probably personal perception

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
Super White 1MZ-FE V6

User avatar
shinny
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4331
Joined: 07/05/06 1:00
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 5
Real Name: Mark
Location: Reading, UK
Contact:

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by shinny » 28/12/16 18:02

baileydom wrote:Right so basically no-one has a clue is the answer to the question haha. Different things work for different people for different reasons and some of it is probably personal perception

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

It's not like any of us are aerodynamics experts! :rolleyes:

There's a huge amount of placebo that goes into car modification too. What we do is very rarely scientific, but yet we kid ourselves we know better than Toyota engineers :rofl:

User avatar
TonyleFrog
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 4536
Joined: 29/07/06 1:00
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 10
MR2's Owned: 5
Real Name: Three guesses!
Location: Kent

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by TonyleFrog » 28/12/16 20:52

vinp182 wrote:However my modded turbo (bomex front, toms skirts, PP spats) which has coilovers (lighter than stock setup), and no spare wheel had front end lift issues.
I'm not altogether surprised given that you had removed ~20kgs of the weight from so far forward in a car which is already biased towards the rear. Toyota will have designed it to run with the spare wheel/tyre in place.
:)
vinp182 wrote:Solved it with dumbells in the frunk held down with the spare wheel bolt
Restoring it will have helped. :th:
shinny wrote:There's a huge amount of placebo that goes into car modification too. What we do is very rarely scientific, but yet we kid ourselves we know better than Toyota engineers :rofl:
I take your point but car designers have to take account of many competing factors and the result is often a compromise.* We may be prepared to scacrifice certain things (e.g. ride comfort) to a degree which an ordinary buyer may not.

* We need to look no further for an example than the redesign of the rear subframe and tie rods.
If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much room!

HM wrote: TonyleFrog aka "The Fog Penetrator"

User avatar
vinp182
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 2702
Joined: 23/01/08 15:21
Gender: Male
Years of MR2 Ownership: 9
MR2's Owned: 100
Real Name: Vinny
Location: Walsall, West Midlands

Re: Front end lift. Camber and sideskirts.

Post by vinp182 » 28/12/16 23:16

My chargecooler pipe work means the spare no longer fits unfortunately. I've also made it even lighter now by fitting a carbon bonnet lol
Cars suck donkey balls

Post Reply

Return to “MK2”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests