3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

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MR2DI4
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

Well accuracy just depends on what your trying to achieve. I'm an Electronics Technician with some mechanical modification and design experience so a bit of a weird combo.

Got a Fluke 8842A bench multimeter because I need the 5-1/2 digit resolution rather than absolute accuracy. No point trying to check the standby current of a device on a standard $20 meter when you need to see 0.060mA so yeah its horses for courses.

You have a load of variables checking the injectors so yeah the errors start multiplying without the right gear.

There must be a reference fuel pressure they are all tested at, that link puts 43.5psi as the default. You would be lucky to get within 5% of that with what you used or the same as I have as a fuel pressure gauge in the car. You need a whole different level of test gear, just saying.

My Fuel pressure gauge in the MR2 is pretty cheap and nasty but its good enough to know if the fuel pump is working or not and also lets you know the 1:1 FPR is roughly doing its job so way better than nothing. No need for anything expensive for this particular application.


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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 At the end of the day I have never even stripped and rebuilt the head on mine, let alone tested the injectors.
:shocked: I guarantee 100% is other way around :laughing I will do at least 4 tests on injectors before you even remove your cylinder head..never mind to strip and rebuild.

MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 Its not really relevant as over the years I have learned that regular maintenance and decent oils means you don't need to rip the engine to bits in the first place.
In generally that's applies to any car if you look after it...but there are some exceptions especially in modern one's.

MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 If your going to move away from stock boost you need an AFR gauge end of story or you will blow the engine.
It will depends what boost you'll be running..but even with 400cc injectors and 15psi on Rev1 & Rev2 on freshly or in good health engine you will be struggling to kill it for many thousands of miles.

MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 The MR2 is really old tech now but its fun to play with and learn about stuff and its relatively flexible with what you can do in terms of modifications because its all still pretty crude in terms of engine control from the ECU.
Yeah you are right! It's a really old tech :laughing But it still can kick up the as**ses many modern tech cars
MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 A characteristic of a 20 plus year old injector would be a decrease in flow. Essentially contaminants block it and I'm also pretty sure they would have a filter in them so it all leads to reduced flow over time. Obviously its an advantage to be able to flow test a set of new injectors and match them all to the same flow rate.
MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 The exhaust pipe is black inside and not grey so its probably still running on the richer side.
You can't judge by the coulor of the exhaust tip at tail pipe..they all black. You need to take of downpipe that connects to turbo to see if you running lean. In my cases they are on white ish in coulor which means I'm running on the leaner side.
MR2DI4 wrote: 12/04/21 19:05 No idea what the injectors are flowing but it's running sweet. I would be really surprised if a modern performance Turbo did not run a fuel pressure sensor running straight into the ECU. You pretty much need to know the second the fuel pressure goes out of Spec. Better faster control loops on a modern car to monitor whats going on with multiple O2 sensors.
Even if they not flow as much as they should the car will still running sweet under intended conditions. Fuel pressure sensors has been equipped on many cars even 20 years ago..mostly on GDI TFSI or any Direct Gasoline injection engines. Every CR (Common Rail)engine were equipped with many fuel pressure sensors on the pumps and on the rail.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 13/04/21 3:00 Well accuracy just depends on what your trying to achieve. I'm an Electronics Technician with some mechanical modification and design experience so a bit of a weird combo.
I would say accuracy depends on what you've got..equipment and tools wise. I'm not going to the moon yet.. :laughing
MR2DI4 wrote: 13/04/21 3:00 Got a Fluke 8842A bench multimeter because I need the 5-1/2 digit resolution rather than absolute accuracy. No point trying to check the standby current of a device on a standard $20 meter when you need to see 0.060mA so yeah its horses for courses.
I'm sure even a Fluke 8842A will needs to be calibrated at certain point..or any other high precision tools.
MR2DI4 wrote: 13/04/21 3:00
You have a load of variables checking the injectors so yeah the errors start multiplying without the right gear.
What the right gear? What variables? I've seen how they test them for flow for £10 per injector and is not any better then I've test mine.

MR2DI4 wrote: 13/04/21 3:00 There must be a reference fuel pressure they are all tested at, that link puts 43.5psi as the default. You would be lucky to get within 5% of that with what you used or the same as I have as a fuel pressure gauge in the car. You need a whole different level of test gear, just saying.
I've already mentioned that I've tested them at 40 to 41 psi and at 46psi no changes that I've noticed.
MR2DI4 wrote: 13/04/21 3:00 My Fuel pressure gauge in the MR2 is pretty cheap and nasty but its good enough to know if the fuel pump is working or not and also lets you know the 1:1 FPR is roughly doing its job so way better than nothing. No need for anything expensive for this particular application.

Where is you fuel pressure gauge located? Also what HP and torque figure your car made with all the mods you've done to it and at what boost pressure?
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

Fuel pressure sender is mounted in the top of the engine bay. I made an adapter and a hose running straight of the banjo connection from memory.

Gauge is mounted on the drivers door of all places, everywhere else is getting a bit cluttered. There is already an AFR and large boy racer tacho on the A pillar and an oil pressure gauge down low.

Base Dyno run no modifications. I recommend anyone do this before you modify the engine if your keeping everything pretty much stock.

Max Power 146.5kW @ 6566 RPM
Max Torque 275.9Nm @ 4102 RPM

Modified.

Max Power 170.5kW @ 6429 RPM
Max Torque 288.7 Nm @ 5430 RPM

You simply could not compare the gains near the top end however, the torque curve went up not down after 4200rpm on the modified engine. The stock engine torque had crashed to 250Nm at 5430 RPM.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

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MR2DI4 wrote: 15/04/21 1:58 Fuel pressure sender is mounted in the top of the engine bay. I made an adapter and a hose running straight of the banjo connection from memory.

Gauge is mounted on the drivers door of all places, everywhere else is getting a bit cluttered. There is already an AFR and large boy racer tacho on the A pillar and an oil pressure gauge down low.

Base Dyno run no modifications. I recommend anyone do this before you modify the engine if your keeping everything pretty much stock.

Max Power 146.5kW @ 6566 RPM
Max Torque 275.9Nm @ 4102 RPM

Modified.

Max Power 170.5kW @ 6429 RPM
Max Torque 288.7 Nm @ 5430 RPM

You simply could not compare the gains near the top end however, the torque curve went up not down after 4200rpm on the modified engine. The stock engine torque had crashed to 250Nm at 5430 RPM.
OK thanks :th: But what boost you've been running,how much in psi in your modified setup? And I assume that you've been running your CT26 with Rev3 compressor wheel as you've mentioned earlier?
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 15/04/21 1:58 I made an adapter and a hose running straight of the banjo connection from memory.
As far as I remember you've said that you still have your MR2 in the garage or so.. you can always go and check or take a pic if that's not a big deal?? Really curious what boost you've been running on your modified engine and modified CT26 with CT20 internals..

p.s just pure curiosity..
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

Image

Fuel pressure sender bottom right of photo mounted to alloy bracket bolted to the side of the intake plenium by the diagnostic box. You have to make a good job of the connecting hose as there is up to 60psi of fuel pressure and any leak will result in a fire in the engine bay and total your car.

MBC clamped to the TRD rear strut brace.

Cold water jacket alloy housing welded to the Number #1 hot pipe. I mounted a Bosch auxiliary water pump in the AC dryer bracket thats in the passenger front wheel arch and used the AC condenser radiator to cool the water. Its total overkill for the amount of heat being pulled out of the hotpipe, its good enough for a water/air IC setup. This was just an idea I had to try and it works.

Blue HPC coated post IC pipe.

Intercooler is stock but has a custom made shroud and SPAL boost level controlled fan the fan kicks in at over 5psi and also brings in the hood fan.

Hot engine coolant running through the throttle body delete, don't need that in the NZ Climate. Your entire throttle body heats up to like 60 Deg C if you run the engine coolant through it.

Stock airbox and Toyota filter.

Running 15psi at the time of the Dyno run, currently running 17psi and the electronic fuel pressure mod was done after the last dyno run.

If I could be bothered to rebuild the head and do the port work I would expect 250-255Hp on a Dyno thats not calibrated to "only make you feel good". Its common sense, if you do a base Dyno run and its putting out more than the Toyota factory spec when the engine was new running under ideal conditions, then something is wrong.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 16/04/21 5:38 Image
Cold water jacket alloy housing welded to the Number #1 hot pipe. I mounted a Bosch auxiliary water pump in the AC dryer bracket thats in the passenger front wheel arch and used the AC condenser radiator to cool the water. Its total overkill for the amount of heat being pulled out of the hotpipe, its good enough for a water/air IC setup. This was just an idea I had to try and it works.
That's interesting mod..and I've never seen it before as you've made it. :th: I was thinking to make similar mod but with stock pipe but then abandon it as there is better way you can do.[/quote]
MR2DI4 wrote: 16/04/21 5:38 Hot engine coolant running through the throttle body delete, don't need that in the NZ Climate. Your entire throttle body heats up to like 60 Deg C if you run the engine coolant through it.
Is not just that..in my experience if you drive very hard and stop after 30 min let the engine running. You'll find that intercooler itself barely worm and the pipe from the turbo to intercooler is very very hot and the pipe to throttle body is hot too same applies to inlet manifold.The problem is that the turbo with exhaust is in the front of the engine and all heats up by hot air flow.
MR2DI4 wrote: 16/04/21 5:38 Stock airbox and Toyota filter.
Same on mine..no place for daft cone filters.
MR2DI4 wrote: 16/04/21 5:38 Running 15psi at the time of the Dyno run, currently running 17psi and the electronic fuel pressure mod was done after the last dyno run.
15psi is it verified by the dyno..as you know yourself all those gauges are not accurate? :laughing
MR2DI4 wrote: 16/04/21 5:38 If I could be bothered to rebuild the head and do the port work I would expect 250-255Hp on a Dyno thats not calibrated to "only make you feel good". Its common sense, if you do a base Dyno run and its putting out more than the Toyota factory spec when the engine was new running under ideal conditions, then something is wrong.
I'll bet it wouldn't make much difference at all regarding head port work. Remember it was designed by Yamaha :laughing unless you change inlet manifold for better design.

Ma car made at the hubs

235bhp @ 6100rrpm

233lbft = 315nm @ 5020 rpm

Car made 270bhp at the flywheel according to the tester.

My mods are much less then yours..just hybrid turbo stage 2 16 degree of timing and 15psi of boost according to the gauge but actual boost according to the dyno was 14psi.

This time I went with stock gutted cat and restrictive stock exhaust elbow..(as I was saying earlier and I was Wrong) actually I'll say that stock is much better then aftermarket down pipes..I've noticed since ditched it the car revs much better after 6000rpm.

Also I've checked the compression and it was 200psi on all cylinders..that's similar to 2zz engines and pretty much everyone would say is to high and no good.

I've upped the boost to 18psi and retarded the timing a little and it went nuts..I had wheel slip in 2nd and 3rd in dry warm weather with Michelin PS4 .

p.s you can get more then 255 hp on rev 2..I recon I can smash it to 300 or over.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

255Hp is about the limit with the stock injectors and stock ECU, you will never get to 300Hp. If its not theoretically possible then there is no way its happening in the real world. Its a pure energy calculation based on air/fuel as the primary factor.

The valves are a major restriction and in particular the inlets get in a real mess over time. The Viton valve stem seals still don't last that long and the more or less continuous vac in the inlets sucks in the oil down the guides and it carbonizes on the valves something terrible. I wish I had taken some pictures of an old Ford that I rebuilt the head on. Instead of the valves almost being a "T" shape they were more like a Pyramid shape on the ends like an antenna symbol. You had to put them in a lathe and use really course sandpaper to rip off the rock hard carbon buildup and get back to the steel and then polish them up with some 600 then 1200 paper. Even in the old N/A ford, the top end improved out of sight so yes 250Hp would be the expectation with a clean and port work. Never quite figured out why the backs of the inlets are never factory Teflon coated, seems like the ideal application for it to me.

You probably have 200psi because of the carbon buildup on top of the piston and cylinder head. All that needs carefully scraping off as well, unless of course the head has been planned and/or a thinner head gasket has been fitted.

Its all about the flow and there is plenty of room to improve that on a car like mine with over 200,000km on the clock that's never had the head removed.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 19/04/21 0:56 255Hp is about the limit with the stock injectors and stock ECU, you will never get to 300Hp. If its not theoretically possible then there is no way its happening in the real world. Its a pure energy calculation based on air/fuel.
so what is the limit of 400cc or OK 430cc injectors then? and where you get your info from? Never say never..theory and practice two different things all together!
MR2DI4 wrote: 19/04/21 0:56
The valves are a major restriction and in particular the inlets get in a real mess over time. The valve stem seals don't last that long and the more or less continuous vac in the inlets sucks in the oil down the guides and it carbonizes on the valves something terrible.
The valve by no any means restriction in 3sgte..I've told you many times I don't know where you get that nonsense from??? . Inlet valves in 3sge and 3sgte never get any mess at all that you are talking about.. They are not direct injection engine or diesels! I've opened at least 25 engines and only one I came across was rev3 3sgte exhaust valve stuck open due carbon build up.
MR2DI4 wrote: 19/04/21 0:56
I wish I had taken some pictures of an old Ford that I rebuilt the head on. Instead of the valves almost being a "T" shape they were more like a Pyramid shape on the ends.
We are talking about 3SGTE..I don't know why you bringing the Ford in this topic or discussion??
MR2DI4 wrote: 19/04/21 0:56
You probably have 200psi because of the carbon buildup on top of the piston and cylinder head. All that needs carefully scraping off as well.
No :blink: please don't jump to conclusion... :facepalm: First of all as you may aware that some of this engines reached around 30 years old...some been striped and rebuild..blocks were skimmed so is the cylinder heads. Now I've been using pistons that are 0.30mm shorter then the stock ones..they were made with considerations that engines been rebuilt in the past. That's the only one manufacture I know who do that for stock and 86.50 oversized pistons.

p.s My engine is practically new and done about 10000 miles at the most since full rebuild!

MR2DI4 wrote: 19/04/21 0:56
Its all about the flow and there is plenty of room to improve that on a car like mine with over 200,000km on the clock that's never had the head removed.
There first thing is to improve anything with 200.000 engine is to completely overhauled it. How do you know if the head has been removed or not? Did you bought the car from brand new?
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

You clearly never bothered to click on the link for the calculation of power vs injector size. You need the 550cc injectors to break the 300Hp figure. About 320Hp is typical from later gen MR2's running higher boost and the CT20b. Not possible with the stock 440cc injectors sorry.

The valves are a MAJOR restriction, in fact they are the biggest restriction in the whole intake system. Not sure why you cannot see that, its just logic. If you cannot see that I'm not going to try and explain it to you. The only time the inlets get to the point of not being a restriction is when you start running huge boost. The Exhausts are always a restriction and hence VVT evolved.

Valves are valves, they get covered in crud. Yes the cleaners in the fuel have helped but they don't stay clean. The type of oil you use would have a big effect, Synthetics don't carbonise as easily as they have a much higher temperature resistance to breaking down and baking on a surface. If you bothered to pull a few CT26 apart you would find nasty things happening in the exhaust turbine seal in terms of carbonized oil due to the extreme temperature at that point. Also the frequency of oil changes is going to have a big effect also, again less crud being thrown out of the oil because its saturated. It can only hold so much black stuff, after that it begins to deposit all over the place.

I have owned the car for 23 years so basically since almost new, its never had the head off or needed any work doing to it except for the turbo rebuild. The original CT26 did pretty well getting to about 168,000Km and modifying it kind of coincided with all the pieces of the puzzle coming together on how to do all the supporting mods myself.

The car has never been in a workshop its whole life, I have done everything on it myself. Getting to the point now where all I want to do it oil and filter changes with the occasional brake pad change. Pretty much over working on old "censored" and I'm waiting for Subaru to release the new STi.
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 20/04/21 6:01 You clearly never bothered to click on the link for the calculation of power vs injector size. You need the 550cc injectors to break the 300Hp figure. About 320Hp is typical from later gen MR2's running higher boost and the CT20b. Not possible with the stock 440cc injectors sorry.
Yes I actually did and quite a few apart from your link. Your link state:

40psi fuel pressure if you put 38 as in manual you'll get even lower results.
Horsepower supported @ crankshaft: 241
Horsepower supported @ wheels: 205

Their calculation simply is incorrect my car made 270 at the flywheel at 14psi

If you were relay on that calculation you'll be walking in sandals in the winter!The are many other sites which give you high and low end results. I'll bet if you used your CT26 and run at 15psi it would make better result then CT20.

MR2DI4 wrote: 20/04/21 6:01 The valves are a MAJOR restriction, in fact they are the biggest restriction in the whole intake system. Not sure why you cannot see that, its just logic. If you cannot see that I'm not going to try and explain it to you. The only time the inlets get to the point of not being a restriction is when you start running huge boost. The Exhausts are always a restriction and hence VVT evolved.
I repeat again Valves are not MAJOR restriction..don't know where you've got your logic from? The valves are operated by camshafts and in other cases employ VVT Vanos is just advance or retards the camshafts,VVT-I VVTL-i VTEC is slightly different and better. However even with those systems the valves are still limited by camshafts. There is a good video from Koenigsegg so will at least educate you https://youtu.be/S3cFfM3r510
MR2DI4 wrote: 20/04/21 6:01 Valves are valves, they get covered in crud. Yes the cleaners in the fuel have helped but they don't stay clean. The type of oil you use would have a big effect, Synthetics don't carbonise as easily as they have a much higher temperature resistance to breaking down and baking on a surface. If you bothered to pull a few CT26 apart you would find nasty things happening in the exhaust turbine seal in terms of carbonized oil due to the extreme temperature at that point. Also the frequency of oil changes is going to have a big effect also, again less crud being thrown out of the oil because its saturated. It can only hold so much black stuff, after that it begins to deposit all over the place.
Yeah valves are valves,blocks are blocks and heads are heads??? There is no such problem on 3sgte or 3sge regarding the valves. You've said yourself you never took the head off :confused1:
The problem is only on Diesel engines and GDI and TFSI as the injectors sits directly in cylinder head rather in inlet manifold or on intake side.

Most so called modern synthetic oils comes from Group ll and Group lll based oil. Group 4 and Group 5 are different and are true synthetic oils. I mostly used semi 10w40 in MR2 in summer change it between 2500 to 3000 miles max,in winter 5w40 synthetic. Took off sump and rocker cover after 15k roughly and it was like brand new and same with turbo. Yeah opened a few CT26 and 20's and many others..carbon deposit you will find on many others especially if oil wasn't changed regularly. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Re ... oil-groups
MR2DI4 wrote: 20/04/21 6:01 Pretty much over working on old "censored" and I'm waiting for Subaru to release the new STi.
Looks like you retired from MR2.. :laughing Not fan of Subaru's 2.5 you can squeeze more from 2.0 liter I would rather go for AMG 2.0l or a New Yaris GR

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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by Voivod »

MR2DI4 wrote: 20/04/21 6:01 You clearly never bothered to click on the link for the calculation of power vs injector size.
Sorry forgot to mention..you've put 2 links at the beginning and then removed one. Why?
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Re: 3sgte Rev1 Rev2 And Rev3 Injectors CC Rating

Post by MR2DI4 »

Hey look I have nothing more to add, good luck with the project. been there and done it back in 2008.

The automotive world has moved on and hopefully Subaru will get the new STi out late next year. Looks like it will have the 2.4 liter FA24 engine in it and they have deliberately targeted the Mercedes engine power wise. Its been way down on power for ages, but again you can have any power you want if your prepared to pay for it. Existing Subaru STi owners have claimed to have spent NZD$50K on their cars over here to get to 310kW. If the new car doesn't come in less than NZD$80K though its never going to sell. There is always a price/power trade off.

The Subaru will remain in a unique position in the market to keep the fans of it happy. The combination of power, AWD and a 6 speed manual make it a one of a kind. I'm just hoping it follows the VIZ concept and its not changed significantly and it comes out butt ugly.

Defiantly a different market over here, Wagons are really popular and our road surfaces are s**t to drive on so AWD rocks. Had the current Subaru for years now and I'm never going back to 2WD.
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