na power the easy way

[DiYMCRT]

ok i found this a while ago to be honest and i'm sure it will have popped up on here previously but to all the n/a owners who get told buy a gte look at this:

http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html

it's cam's, a 1mm overbore with new piston's moderate head work to plug a hole and head work to fit the new cams for the now bigger lobe diameters, valve springs, itb's which can be found from most modern bikes for £100, exhaust manifold, it doesn't mention what management but presumably trd will have produced their own management.

it's not free but it's not all that much if you want a 269bhp 180ft/lb n/a 2000cc engine

[Protok]

Erm that's on a 3SGE Beams, starts with 210hp as standard.

Also all those parts cost around £9000, if you were to do it cheap; you'd spend around £4000 on parts alone and then you need labour and whatever extra expenses.

I wanted to further with mine, had 203hp at the wheels with ITBs, manifold and ECU.
But head work is not cheap and neither are pistons, rods, etc.
There was actually one mod (Sequential Injectors) where I couldn't find anyone to actually map for it.

[splatadoo]

ok i found this a while ago to be honest and i'm sure it will have popped up on here previously but to all the n/a owners who get told buy a gte look at this:

http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html

it's cam's, a 1mm overbore with new piston's moderate head work to plug a hole and head work to fit the new cams for the now bigger lobe diameters, valve springs, itb's which can be found from most modern bikes for £100, exhaust manifold, it doesn't mention what management but presumably trd will have produced their own management.

it's not free but it's not all that much if you want a 269bhp 180ft/lb n/a 2000cc engine

Stop looking for ways to get more from the n/a.... its been done more times than a £5 whore and you aint gonna find a way..... buy a GTE!

[DiYMCRT]

Stop looking for ways to get more from the n/a.... its been done more times than a £5 whore and you aint gonna find a way..... buy a GTE!

yes it has been done you must have read the article this topic is about

Erm that's on a 3SGE Beams, starts with 210hp as standard.

Also all those parts cost around £9000, if you were to do it cheap; you'd spend around £4000 on parts alone and then you need labour and whatever extra expenses.

I wanted to further with mine, had 203hp at the wheels with ITBs, manifold and ECU.
But head work is not cheap and neither are pistons, rods, etc.
There was actually one mod (Sequential Injectors) where I couldn't find anyone to actually map for it.

£9000 are you for real :wtf: if you can't change a cam and valve spring then yes it will cost more money about £40 an hour i believe is the average rate so if you took it to a garage that takes 100 hours to do the work yes £4000 is the labour

280 cams (pair) £400+vat:
http://www.vividracing.co.uk/kelford_me ... 483612.php

hks valve springs £180:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_2 ... ry_12/1249

uprated journals £30:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_26/Category_12/

uprated HG £225:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_26/Category_12/


bike itb's about £100 for good ones from ebay or similar breakers

fujitsubo exhaust manifold £550

ecu £500

leaving the pistons and overbore and including the machining work maybe £3000

yes i know it's a beams, is the beams not an n/a 3sge? the article states that at the start and you can tell from looking at the drawing of the head, if you read the whole article (broken english) it implies the head work, it won't cost £1000 for a couple of mm being removed here and there.

if you haven't put cams in yours protok then perhaps that's why you haven't seen the power as they are by far the most significant modification on this spec list i believe the overbore is more for reliability.

long and short of it look how little is done and look at the performance output and find another spec list that can do the same output and reliability for the same effort without jumping on the band wagon and sticking a turbo on it, think of the development gone into that spec list and then ask yourself why do toyota still use it, even over the z engines the 3sge is still being chosen!

this is the lower spec if you read it not the group n spec used in the auris etc.

[splatadoo]

Stop looking for ways to get more from the n/a.... its been done more times than a £5 whore and you aint gonna find a way..... buy a GTE!

yes it has been done you must have read the article this topic is about

I HAVE read the article..... its for the beams..... Beams mr2's are RARE. the ge engine usually fitted in the 2 is not the same as the one this article is on about.

Yes i agree you can get more power but you need far far deeper pockets than just buying a gte and you wont see the gain necessary to justify the cost. Give up on looking!!!

[_Al_]

yes i know it's a beams, is the beams not an n/a 3sge?

The article specifically states:

"3S-GE engine parts are for Altezza (SXE10) M/T cars only. Cannot be used in 3S-GE engines of other cars"

The article is for an Altezza BEAMS engine and cannot be used in non-Altezza BEAMS 3S-GE engines.

That aside you may also want to look carefully at the two graphs. Note how the TRD engine doesn't have a power trace below 4,000rpm. I'd bet good money that they've presented it that way because the power and torque fall a long way short of the standard engine, and for a road car that's where you'll be 90% of the time.

I don't have an axe to grind on turbo vs NA. I bought this car because of the overall condition, not the turbocharger. For track use I'd rather have an NA. Thing is though, you have to appreciate that it has limits. Not only will the TRD NA be far more expensive than a turbo for less power, it'll also be far more likely to go bang in a big way as you're stressing all the parts.

Toyota wouldn't have spent £££,£££k developing a new turbo model if they could get away with changing a handfull of parts on their existing model.

[sinjen]

Interesting article mate

Depends what you want at the end of the day, people are always going to question any route that you prefer to take, doesn't mean it's wrong or that you should take offence, different people for different things. If you have the money and your preference is towards N/a power delivery, I for one would love to see you do it. I've always preferred high power N/a delivery to turbo but owing, personally, to time and money I have gone the turbo route.

It's a ridiculous argument to suggest that you can't get anymore power/torque out of any particular engine, non beams 3sge included, no engine comes out of the factory anywhere near highly tuned. However, most will just suggest going turbo because it's easier and cheaper and other excuses, my favourite being "Toyota did such a good job in the first place you can't get anymore out of it"!!

[Dasher_GT]

personally i've been down the N/A tuning to max route before all be it not on a Toyota, but still was a similar concept it was just problem after problem and in the whole 2 years of the build i only ever had it running sweet once.

In the end i wished i had just done the engine conversion that everyone done which was similar to the turbo conversion. Also i was constantly afraid to take it anywhere far away from home in case of a problem.

[Protok]

£9000 are you for real :wtf: if you can't change a cam and valve spring then yes it will cost more money about £40 an hour i believe is the average rate so if you took it to a garage that takes 100 hours to do the work yes £4000 is the labour

Erm yes £9000 and that is just for the TRD parts; that's how much they were new and finding them now is a needle in a few billion haystacks.
Toda also do the parts for the 3SGE Beams, not as pricey but you won't come away with less than £5000 spent.

280 cams (pair) £400+vat:
http://www.vividracing.co.uk/kelford_me ... 483612.php

hks valve springs £180:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_2 ... ry_12/1249

uprated journals £30:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_26/Category_12/

uprated HG £225:
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_26/Category_12/

Wrong Engine........
Also you forgot the shims and all the other ancillaries that most people don't take into account.

bike itb's about £100 for good ones from ebay or similar breakers

No good, they are too small. You need at least 45mm at butterfly.

fujitsubo exhaust manifold £550

Can't get them anymore and I am sure they were £800 new.

ecu £500

Which ECU is this?
ECUs cost £500 in wiring and base mapping alone
Link G4 Storm is £900
Motec M400 is £1000
Another option is the Emanage Ultimate but that's a piggyback and still costs £800.

yes i know it's a beams, is the beams not an n/a 3sge? the article states that at the start and you can tell from looking at the drawing of the head, if you read the whole article (broken english) it implies the head work, it won't cost £1000 for a couple of mm being removed here and there.

Yes but the beams is completely different.
Different in near enough every way. The beams was 200bhp or 210bhp as standard. VVTi meant that you had torque and power from idle to the red line.
The head (as I recently found out) flows twice more than the 3SGTE. Valves are around 5mm bigger and well it is altogether a much, much better engine.

if you haven't put cams in yours protok then perhaps that's why you haven't seen the power as they are by far the most significant modification on this spec list i believe the overbore is more for reliability.

I didn't put cams in cause I didn't want to lose my VVTi which is what keeps my torque from being above 4000rpm.
Either way 203hp is more than anyone on here has had in an N/A.

long and short of it look how little is done and look at the performance output and find another spec list that can do the same output and reliability for the same effort without jumping on the band wagon and sticking a turbo on it, think of the development gone into that spec list and then ask yourself why do toyota still use it, even over the z engines the 3sge is still being chosen!

Because they are cheap to buy and easy to work on.
Less technology means less to try and work around.

Toyota wouldn't have spent £££,£££k developing a new turbo model if they could get away with changing a handfull of parts on their existing model.[/quote]
But erm.... They did!
One thing that annoys me about the Toyota world is the naivety of the owners.
The blocks are the same between all the 3S engines.
If you forge a 3SGE for turbo charging then it would be exactly the same as a forged 3SGTE.

Now for my part in this.
I love tuned N/As and I spent a long time harping around that done right you won't spend more than a 3VZ build and make more power.
Because of sheer luck, lots of searching and more luck I managed my whole original build for £3000. That included the engine, ITBs, Manifold, ECU and labour. At the end of the day I loved it; I miss it. It was good and reliable; the power was more than enough and I even more than kept up with more powerful cars.

The thing is that as anyone knows, once you start messing with an engine you do not stop.
So I wanted more and started looking at other options including the TRD and Toda mentioned above.
My option for staying N/A was simple but quite expensive considering I'd need an internal rebuild with new pistons, rods, bearings upping the compression to 13:1. Changing the camshafts meant a head rebuilt and bespoke camshafts in order to keep the VVTi which was going to cost at least £1500. So when I was looking at £5000 just to keep it N/A and squeeze more power; I ended up looking at other options.
One was supercharging but that was limited to around 230-240bhp without custom pulleys and bigger superchargers so it quickly became financially not viable.

So last option was to turbocharge it. Everything looked good from a paper point of view; grab a turbo from another car, fit it to engine and limit to 12psi and 300hp as the rods aren't happy with more. So I did it, cost me around £1000. But there was a problem, the beams flows a lot more than people thought so the turbo died after 6700rpm which was well short of the 8000rpm I was used to. The power didn't exceed 230hp at the wheels.

Now nearly 4years after I first started this whole engine thing the engine is finally getting over the teething issues, getting the cut corners fixed and have got a custom built turbo ready to go to compliment the engine.
Now I'll still put down people that say you should have just got a 3SGTE because at the end of the day it isn't the same as an 3SGTE I've ever driven. The engine is a completely different ball game, the VVTi definitely changes a lot of things and the high compression means a lot better response both on and off boost.

I had a lot of problems as well because of using the wrong person to work on my car.

[Howlin_Mad]

Just buy one of each like I did. Problem solved

HM

[Protok]

Just buy one of each like I did. Problem solved

HM

You don't have a super powered beams

[sinjen]

Red, how much do you reckon you've spent on your beams?

[vinp182]

]

Red, how much do you reckon you've spent on your beams?

£3.60 and a pack of chewing gum

[splatadoo]

]

Red, how much do you reckon you've spent on your beams?

£3.60 and a pack of chewing gum

Wheres the like button